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Discussion Starter #61
I was really surprised to see the batteries that low. I keep my deep cycle batteries indoors during the winter and recharge them once, somewhere near the end of January beginning of February (mid-winter).

This morning when I checked the Batteries they were at 22v. Using the Generator again I brought them up to 27volts. When I manually increased the throttle it went up to 45volts. I only did that for a second.

Wish that **** Ammeter would get here. Anything else I should try while waiting?

Thank again
 

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I was really surprised to see the batteries that low. I keep my deep cycle batteries indoors during the winter and recharge them once, somewhere near the end of January beginning of February (mid-winter).

This morning when I checked the Batteries they were at 22v. Using the Generator again I brought them up to 27volts. When I manually increased the throttle it went up to 45volts. I only did that for a second.

Wish that **** Ammeter would get here. Anything else I should try while waiting?

Thank again
Did you open the throttle fully open when you got 45V?
Can you open the throttle just enough to maintain say, a constant 28 to 30V? If so, then try that for about 30 min. while watching the voltage. If the voltage starts to go up then start decreasing the throttle to maintain that voltage.
Check the battery voltage after they set for several hours.
Another thing you need to do is remove the caps so you can see if the acid is bubbling. That is a good thing to re-stratify the acid (just don't boil the acid out and watch the temperature of the batteries. Don't let them get hot.

Caution, keep the batteries as far away as you can from anything that could cause the escaping gas from exploding.

Hope the ammeter shows up soon. Hint with a DC ammeter, it will have a "zero" button on it.
Press that button each time after setting it to DC current before placing the clamp fver the wire you are going to measure.
 

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Discussion Starter #63
So get this. This is my luck. I received my new Ammeter this morning and I put batteries in it, turned it on and nothing. Replaced with different batteries still nothing. Looked more carefully inside the battery compartment and you can see there was corrosion all inside the ammeter. It was brand new. So at least this time I still had the box and sent it back for a replacement. Argh. Anyways I ran the generator for half an hour throttled up a bit to put out about 29 volts. The batteries never boiled or got hot. Mind you I did the test outside in nearly 30 below celsius. When I was done the batteries were at 27 volts and dropped to 23 after about 3 hours outdoors. Thanks again.
 

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It sounds like the vendor sent you a "returned, used ammeter", that is unfortunate. I hope you get a refund!
The results of the voltage increase in the batteries, verifies that the generator is working to produce the current to provide charge to the batteries.
Concerning the capacity of these batteries and the state of discharge they were in, the amount of charge you put into them is only a fraction of a "full charge". The voltage drop can be expected. Keep in mind, the batteries were severally discharged at 15V. Deep cycle batteries must to be fully recharged within 24 hours after use to prevent sulfation, I would suspect that you are due for new batteries as these will not give you the full Amp hour capacity they are rated for.
They will be good for our testing though.
Thank goodness you will not be out fishing for awhile. Wouldn't catch this old guy out there trying to catch a fish in this weather! I'll settle for a McDonalds Filet of Fish sandwich thank you. :D

I wish I could be there with my tools to work with you, we would have this solved by now.
In the meantime, read up on the proper care of deep cycle batteries.

Here is a good article to read during this lousy weather, yes we have icicles hanging off the tree branches and 4 inches of snow here in WV!
I'm still hanging in there with you.
 

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Discussion Starter #65
It sounds like the vendor sent you a "returned, used ammeter", that is unfortunate. I hope you get a refund!
The results of the voltage increase in the batteries, verifies that the generator is working to produce the current to provide charge to the batteries.
Concerning the capacity of these batteries and the state of discharge they were in, the amount of charge you put into them is only a fraction of a "full charge". The voltage drop can be expected. Keep in mind, the batteries were severally discharged at 15V. Deep cycle batteries must to be fully recharged within 24 hours after use to prevent sulfation, I would suspect that you are due for new batteries as these will not give you the full Amp hour capacity they are rated for.
They will be good for our testing though.
Thank goodness you will not be out fishing for awhile. Wouldn't catch this old guy out there trying to catch a fish in this weather! I'll settle for a McDonalds Filet of Fish sandwich thank you. :D

I wish I could be there with my tools to work with you, we would have this solved by now.
In the meantime, read up on the proper care of deep cycle batteries.

Here is a good article to read during this lousy weather, yes we have icicles hanging off the tree branches and 4 inches of snow here in WV!
I'm still hanging in there with you.
Yeah winter sucks and not having the proper tools. I have a question for you absolute worst case scenio could I put a MPPT on it to charge the batteries. I'd have to use the pull starter to start it. And not run it the same time as the motors. Since it just about stalls when there is a heavy load. Thanks for the deep cycle article. Oh and I found where I can buy a replacement controller if that is what I screwed up. Just rather on the expensive side so I'm hoping I don't have to
 

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Yeah winter sucks and not having the proper tools. I have a question for you absolute worst case scenio could I put a MPPT on it to charge the batteries. I'd have to use the pull starter to start it. And not run it the same time as the motors. Since it just about stalls when there is a heavy load. Thanks for the deep cycle article. Oh and I found where I can buy a replacement controller if that is what I screwed up. Just rather on the expensive side so I'm hoping I don't have to
Paul,
Let me do some research on the MPPTs, I'll get back to you about that.

Attach a link to the replacement controller please.

We need to verify what is going on during the operation of the range extender under differing conditions with the ammeter before making any more assumptions.:unsure:

Did you ever figure out if your boat motors turned free, or are they just frozen up with ice?

I'm not a cold weather person either. I spent about 4 hrs. today breaking up about 3/8" of ice under 4" of snow and shoveling off my steep driveway.
 

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Discussion Starter #67
Paul,
Let me do some research on the MPPTs, I'll get back to you about that.

Attach a link to the replacement controller please.

We need to verify what is going on during the operation of the range extender under differing conditions with the ammeter before making any more assumptions.:unsure:

Did you ever figure out if your boat motors turned free, or are they just frozen up with ice?

I'm not a cold weather person either. I spent about 4 hrs. today breaking up about 3/8" of ice under 4" of snow and shoveling off my steep driveway.


This is the same type of controller. I contacted them and they do have a 24 model (shown is 48v) which of course they are charging an Extra $50 for it,

My motors are frozen. Normally I can turn them by hand but they wont budge. I guessing they wont move till spring.

yuch, breaking ice is always fun.

This year hasn't been to bad for ice. However in the past we normally get massive ice storms. In 1998 we broke the worlds record. And it left some areas here without power for over 3 weeks. It broke every power line between every pole and brought down the massive transmission towers. Last night eleven inches of snow fell so today I'm firing up the snow blower. Truthfully this year has been pretty mild so I shouldn't complain. But anything that forces me to take my boat out of the water I'm going to complain about. West Virginia is mostly Mountains right?
 

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This is the same type of controller. I contacted them and they do have a 24 model (shown is 48v) which of course they are charging an Extra $50 for it,
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My motors are frozen. Normally I can turn them by hand but they wont budge. I guessing they wont move till spring.

yuch, breaking ice is always fun.

This year hasn't been to bad for ice. However in the past we normally get massive ice storms. In 1998 we broke the worlds record. And it left some areas here without power for over 3 weeks. It broke every power line between every pole and brought down the massive transmission towers. Last night eleven inches of snow fell so today I'm firing up the snow blower. Truthfully this year has been pretty mild so I shouldn't complain. But anything that forces me to take my boat out of the water I'm going to complain about. West Virginia is mostly Mountains right?
Yeah winter sucks and not having the proper tools. I have a question for you absolute worst case scenio could I put a MPPT on it to charge the batteries. I'd have to use the pull starter to start it. And not run it the same time as the motors. Since it just about stalls when there is a heavy load. Thanks for the deep cycle article. Oh and I found where I can buy a replacement controller if that is what I screwed up. Just rather on the expensive side so I'm hoping I don't have to
After a lot of research today, I cannot recommend using a MPPT with your range extender without being absolutely sure about the actual wattage output. The issue I see is that the MPPT’s state a maximum input wattage depending on the output current. They do allow a broad voltage range though.

I am going to attach a PDF manual for the one I referred to earlier to in this discussion. I highlighted some items in yellow for you to read.

Let’s get back to your existing components for now.

I’m interested in your controller and rectifier.
In one photo of the rectifier, I could see part of the schematic etched on the side if it. I would like to see a clear shot of that if I could.

On to the controller, you said that you pulled the cover off of it at one time and said that it had a 24V label on the board. Could you remove the cover again and get a photo of the board for me? Both top and bottom.

Sorry to be a pain here.

Here in WV they call them mountains, I’ve been here since 2003. I lived in Washington state for 30 years before moving here.
In Washington, we had mountains! I call WV mountains “hills”.
 

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Discussion Starter #69
After a lot of research today, I cannot recommend using a MPPT with your range extender without being absolutely sure about the actual wattage output. The issue I see is that the MPPT’s state a maximum input wattage depending on the output current. They do allow a broad voltage range though.

I am going to attach a PDF manual for the one I referred to earlier to in this discussion. I highlighted some items in yellow for you to read.

Let’s get back to your existing components for now.

I’m interested in your controller and rectifier.
In one photo of the rectifier, I could see part of the schematic etched on the side if it. I would like to see a clear shot of that if I could.

On to the controller, you said that you pulled the cover off of it at one time and said that it had a 24V label on the board. Could you remove the cover again and get a photo of the board for me? Both top and bottom.

Sorry to be a pain here.

Here in WV they call them mountains, I’ve been here since 2003. I lived in Washington state for 30 years before moving here.
In Washington, we had mountains! I call WV mountains “hills”.
Haha I know what you mean I live north of Ottawa in the Laurentians they call them mountains but I grew up in Jasper Alberta in the heart of the rockies. I admit I know very little about West Virginia but Washington state I know pretty well. Spent quite a bit of time there. I was just getting at Mountainous areas are usually get a lot of snow. Thank you again for all your help. I really need this to work.
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Discussion Starter #70
Haha I know what you mean I live north of Ottawa in the Laurentians they call them mountains but I grew up in Jasper Alberta in the heart of the rockies. I admit I know very little about West Virginia but Washington state I know pretty well. Spent quite a bit of time there. I was just getting at Mountainous areas are usually get a lot of snow. Thank you again for all your help. I really need this to work. View attachment 8787 View attachment 8788 View attachment 8789 View attachment 8790 View attachment 8791 View attachment 8792 View attachment 8793 View attachment 8794 View attachment 8795 View attachment 8796
Haha I know what you mean I live north of Ottawa in the Laurentians they call them mountains but I grew up in Jasper Alberta in the heart of the rockies. I admit I know very little about West Virginia but Washington state I know pretty well. Spent quite a bit of time there. I was just getting at Mountainous areas are usually get a lot of snow. Thank you again for all your help. I really need this to work. View attachment 8787 View attachment 8788 View attachment 8789 View attachment 8790 View attachment 8791 View attachment 8792 View attachment 8793 View attachment 8794 View attachment 8795 View attachment 8796
I had trouble focusing
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Haha I know what you mean I live north of Ottawa in the Laurentians they call them mountains but I grew up in Jasper Alberta in the heart of the rockies. I admit I know very little about West Virginia but Washington state I know pretty well. Spent quite a bit of time there. I was just getting at Mountainous areas are usually get a lot of snow. Thank you again for all your help. I really need this to work.
I actually lived in Spokane, WA. Looks like you migrated East like I did. I just didn't go far enough south though!

I was hoping to find some information on that board to identify it, so I could find a schematic. No dice though. I don't see any smoking guns where you may have let the magic smoke out.

I did find a schematic and specs on the rectifier though. Standard design for a heavy duty AC to DC rectifier. I don't think you could have damaged it. It is still doing what is designed for. If it was damaged, you would not get any voltage out of it. The operation of the rectifier does not regulate voltage at all. X AC Volts in = X DC Volts out.

I would hold off on ordering the replacement controller for now until you get your DC clamp on ammeter. Tools are a must have when working on problems like this.

Also, with the three wire output from the AC generator, any time you swap any one wire, it can/may reverse the voltage.
Who is to say that color coding is the same between the old and new controllers.
Do you have a shop or garage you can work in rather than being out in the weather?
You really need that DC ammeter to progress here.
Keep your head up and stay warm.

I'm still here. No place to go with the storm we have coming in tonight.
 

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Discussion Starter #72
I actually lived in Spokane, WA. Looks like you migrated East like I did. I just didn't go far enough south though!

I was hoping to find some information on that board to identify it, so I could find a schematic. No dice though. I don't see any smoking guns where you may have let the magic smoke out.

I did find a schematic and specs on the rectifier though. Standard design for a heavy duty AC to DC rectifier. I don't think you could have damaged it. It is still doing what is designed for. If it was damaged, you would not get any voltage out of it. The operation of the rectifier does not regulate voltage at all. X AC Volts in = X DC Volts out.

I would hold off on ordering the replacement controller for now until you get your DC clamp on ammeter. Tools are a must have when working on problems like this.

Also, with the three wire output from the AC generator, any time you swap any one wire, it can/may reverse the voltage.
Who is to say that color coding is the same between the old and new controllers.
Do you have a shop or garage you can work in rather than being out in the weather?
You really need that DC ammeter to progress here.
Keep your head up and stay warm.

I'm still here. No place to go with the storm we have coming in tonight.
I saw a thing on the news about the storm hitting down there. Hope your ok. I know Spokane. Back when I was a teen and the Canadian dollar was worth more than the USD. We would go down to Spokane to go shopping.
I have a shed with a workbench so I'm out of the snow and wind but it's not heated. I did have to take it outside when I ran it for awhile because there isn't a very big door on the shed and exhaust builds up quickly.
I'm still waiting for the replacement Ammeter. They sent a return label but it doesn't say how fast for the replacement shipping. I'll let you know as soon as it arrives.
I do have one question though something I can't figure out in my head. Looking at the wiring diagram and knowing the Rectifier just switches AC to DC. How if the controller was doing it's job can it control the voltage so it stays the same when the voltage coming out of the generator goes up with more throttle.
I think I get how the starter works (or doesn't in this case).
Thanks for sticking with me.
 

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I saw a thing on the news about the storm hitting down there. Hope your ok. I know Spokane. Back when I was a teen and the Canadian dollar was worth more than the USD. We would go down to Spokane to go shopping.
I have a shed with a workbench so I'm out of the snow and wind but it's not heated. I did have to take it outside when I ran it for awhile because there isn't a very big door on the shed and exhaust builds up quickly.
I'm still waiting for the replacement Ammeter. They sent a return label but it doesn't say how fast for the replacement shipping. I'll let you know as soon as it arrives.
I do have one question though something I can't figure out in my head. Looking at the wiring diagram and knowing the Rectifier just switches AC to DC. How if the controller was doing it's job can it control the voltage so it stays the same when the voltage coming out of the generator goes up with more throttle.
I think I get how the starter works (or doesn't in this case).
Thanks for sticking with me.
That's why I wanted to see photos of the controller board. I was hoping to find enough identifying information to get a wiring schematic.
 

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Discussion Starter #74
Ok so I have DC ammeter. I did as you say and put the clamp around the negative wire. At idle it out out 6 amps and at full throttle it put out a bit more than 70 amps. Thanks again.
 

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Ok so I have DC ammeter. I did as you say and put the clamp around the negative wire. At idle it out out 6 amps and at full throttle it put out a bit more than 70 amps. Thanks again.
What were the voltages at idle and full throttle? What was the battery voltage when you started the test?
 

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Discussion Starter #76
Barteries were at 23.6 (after sitting for two days) engine at idle connected to just the batteries, no load is 24.7v and at full throttle 43v
 

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I do know how to spell batteries.
Darn cold fingers?
A test for you:
It appears that the controller is not going to control Voltage at different throttle settings.
One of the things that needs to be checked out is if it controls current output as the batteries become charged in the same way an automatic battery charger would.
Here is where your ammeter will come in.

paulbeauchemin said:
Ok so I have DC ammeter. I did as you say and put the clamp around the negative wire. At idle it put out 6 amps and at full throttle it put out a bit more than 70 amps. Thanks again.
CAREFUL here! You could blow up your batterie(s)!
Copied from the internet:
BATTERY CHARGE/DISCHARGE RATE
You’ll see references in battery books to the proper charge rate. C/10, C/20, etc. Sometimes it can be confusing. What you need to know is that it means the “time” it takes to fully charge a “dead” battery at a certain amp rate. For example: A 105AH battery will fully recharge (from dead) in about 10 hours at about 10 amps of charge (C/10) or about 20 hours at 5 amps of charge (C/20).
Faster charge rates, like C/5 or C/8 shouldn’t be used with most batteries because the high amperage required for such a fast charge damages the battery.
C/5 on a dead 105 AH battery requires pounding in over twenty amps. (This is sufficient reason to stay away from fast-chargers in service stations where a gigantic amount of amps are pummeling your battery when they “charge” (destroy) it in 20 minutes. And when you buy a battery off the shelf, don’t let the guy “put it on a charger for just a few minutes” or it will be damaged before you ever use it.

What you need to do is set the range extender speed so it is putting out around 29V while connected to the batteries and see what the current is.
 

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Discussion Starter #79
Darn cold fingers?
A test for you:
It appears that the controller is not going to control Voltage at different throttle settings.
One of the things that needs to be checked out is if it controls current output as the batteries become charged in the same way an automatic battery charger would.
Here is where your ammeter will come in.

paulbeauchemin said:
Ok so I have DC ammeter. I did as you say and put the clamp around the negative wire. At idle it put out 6 amps and at full throttle it put out a bit more than 70 amps. Thanks again.
CAREFUL here! You could blow up your batterie(s)!
Copied from the internet:
BATTERY CHARGE/DISCHARGE RATE
You’ll see references in battery books to the proper charge rate. C/10, C/20, etc. Sometimes it can be confusing. What you need to know is that it means the “time” it takes to fully charge a “dead” battery at a certain amp rate. For example: A 105AH battery will fully recharge (from dead) in about 10 hours at about 10 amps of charge (C/10) or about 20 hours at 5 amps of charge (C/20).
Faster charge rates, like C/5 or C/8 shouldn’t be used with most batteries because the high amperage required for such a fast charge damages the battery.
C/5 on a dead 105 AH battery requires pounding in over twenty amps. (This is sufficient reason to stay away from fast-chargers in service stations where a gigantic amount of amps are pummeling your battery when they “charge” (destroy) it in 20 minutes. And when you buy a battery off the shelf, don’t let the guy “put it on a charger for just a few minutes” or it will be damaged before you ever use it.

What you need to do is set the range extender speed so it is putting out around 29V while connected to the batteries and see what the current is.
At 29 volts it puts out 14.5 amps. Is that to fast to charge.
 

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If you need a motor or generator shop to do system checks or rewiring of AC/DC equipment, I recommend Lang Electric Company located in Baltimore, Maryland.
 
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