Power Equipment Forum banner
21 - 36 of 36 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Many thanks for your help and input, guys. It would be nice if anyone on the forum could chime in if they have run any load tests on this or similar rated gensets. I’m probably being anal about this, since I really don’t have much of an electrical load in the house other than starting the A/C that I would view as being critical. Being in the North Dallas area, I really don’t have many power outages – don’t think our neighborhood has ever been off more than a day or so, and that was due to a bad xfrmr feeding several houses. Even during the notorious ice event in ‘21, the power didn’t go out. BUT…the way things are going…you never know. If push comes to shove, we can tough out the loss of A/C, but if another ice event occurred, I would like to keep the pipes from freezing. That in itself would pay for the generator/hookup. Although the price of burning the NG would come into play at some point!

I’m attaching a few photos of my layout since Paul @ iowagold seems pretty savvy about such things. But here is an overview of my setup: The gas meter is rated for 630 C.F.H. I had this put in some years ago when the original, smaller meter was leaking. I told the techs who came out to replace it that I may be going with a tankless water heater in the future, and they had this one on their truck that they put in (Photo 1). I did wind up installing a 180K BTU tankless years ago, so its safe to say the line is well purged. So from there it goes to an underground 1½” line. The plumber who installed the takeoff for the generator found an undergound leak when doing the installation, and we had to dig out and replace the riser, so that’s how we know that line is 1 ½” . Photo 2 shows the 1 ¼ “ riser where the 1” tap and ball valve are (stepped down to ¾ QC). So l would say we have six 90s in the line, plus one ¾” 90 street elbow into the regulator. I have a 15’ hose with female QC, and its quick and easy to purge the line when starting. Cranks off in about 5 seconds. Of course, these ¾ couplings are not a full ¾ bore, but then again with the regulator orifice being 7/16, and the output being 3/8, I would think I’m good, but apparently not.
Wood Grass Plant Motor vehicle Gas
Brickwork Brick Plant Grass Wood

Any simple way of determining flow? Is it possible that the gas meter/regulator is at fault, since I get gauge fluctuation at the 1 ¼” pipe before hitting the 1” take off? I’m reading this off a grill connection to the 1 ¼ pipe. Might this be indicative of a flow problem upstream, too many 90s , etc. or just due to inertia of the needle due to generator consumption/starvation!

Atmos Energy, the gas supplier,state son their website (Gas Quality Specifications) that the Btu - minimum 950, maximum 1100) at 14.65 psi dry.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Thanks, GenKnot. Guess I'm having trouble understanding if the final "hole" the gas goes through is 7/16 / 3/8 (regulator in/out), the much bigger piping upstream shouldn't be much of a limiting factor. But I am no expert in fluid dynamics (or much else for that matter:)!). I will wait until the next maintenance run to try either gas or propane. Anyone know if I can run a 10 kw load (for a short time) on a grill tank without it freezing up?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
772 Posts
...the much bigger piping upstream shouldn't be much of a limiting factor.
Oh, but it is.

Flow thru restrictions whether it is bends, small diameter pipe, or whatever is what gets you. You want to have the most pressure (hopefully it is near meter outlet pressure) available at the final destination. Flow is what drops the pressure. If there is no flow, then the pressure at the gen end of your run would be meter pressure.

Think of it this way. If you are using your 100' long garden hose wide open, much of the water pressure is lost as it travels thru the hose. If you stop the flow, then the pressure at the end of the hose builds up to whatever the city pressure is to your house.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Thanks to each of you. The technical info sharing that has been shared really helped me not to give up getting my WGen12000df converted to NG. I live in SE Louisiana so having a back up generator is an absolute must. I am not really knowledgeable on this stuff or really technical, but I have good hands and can follow directions well.

I broke in my WGen12000df on gasoline. I ran it for 3 1/2 hours with my home a/c, lights, tv and a ceiling fans being on. On gasoline it barely hiccupped each time my Trane 4 ton a/c cycled on.

I later purchased and installed the Nash Fuel conversion kit. I was working to get this generator NG converted and load tested before hurricane season started, but ran in to a few issues. I initially installed ~60 ft o the 3/4" id underground Home Flex NG riser kit from my gas meter to my back yard in addition to a 15' hose from the gas riser quick connect to the generator and later discovered that I needed to increase the 3/4" Home Flex to 1" due to the size of this generator and the recommendation from a friend who installed a few whole home generators. Before I replaced the 3/4" home flex, I had my NG provider come out and increase my gas pressure from 4 oz/.25 psig to a little under 8 oz. .5 psig. Max inlet of the regulator is 8 oz so I wanted to stay below that. It took what seems like forever to bleed the air from the 3/4" Home Flex gas riser kit and 15 foot hose. Once I was sure that I had NG to the regulator, the generator would start and run for short periods. I could not keep it running no matter what different set up I tried with or without the Nash Fuels conversion kit. I tinkered with it for quite some time.

However, I bit the bullet and I replaced the 3/4" Home Flex NG riser kit with a 1" kit (yes, I had to dig up 18" deep piping that I had already covered up) and added a 1/2" bleeder valve upstream of the hose quick connection near the Home Flex gas riser and another 1/2" bleeder valve at the generator inlet upstream of the regulator. After air freeing for some time, the generator started up and ran ok without load on it. I had replaced the original regulator with the regulator (primer included) from the Nash Fuels conversion kit as well as the hose from that kit that has a smaller diameter than the original one that came with the generator. When I placed a load on it, the generator shut down. Then I changed out the branch valve (5 way valve) with the larger bore one supplied with the conversion kit from Nash Fuels. After that, it started up w/o needing to be primed and ran really well. I placed a load on it and it ran my whole home with the a/c, ceiling fans, tv and microwave running. It bogged down a little when the a/c cycled on, but this thing seems to have run really well for the hour or so that I tested it on NG.

So now I would like to fine tune my set up. After reading what has been shared I may need to see how it runs on gasoline after changing out the branch valve just in case I ever need to run on gasoline again. Additionally, do I need to purchase and .025 gap new spark plugs for NG/Gasoline? Finally, I just looked at a Micro-Air Easy Start/Soft Start and I am considering installing one on my a/c to allow it to slow start, reduce start up amp draw, increase generator performance when the a/c cycles on and likely extend my a/c compressor life. Any recommendations will be greatly appreciated.
 
Joined
·
5 Posts
Thanks to each of you. The technical info sharing that has been shared really helped me not to give up getting my WGen12000df converted to NG. I live in SE Louisiana so having a back up generator is an absolute must. I am not really knowledgeable on this stuff or really technical, but I have good hands and can follow directions well.

I broke in my WGen12000df on gasoline. I ran it for 3 1/2 hours with my home a/c, lights, tv and a ceiling fans being on. On gasoline it barely hiccupped each time my Trane 4 ton a/c cycled on.

I later purchased and installed the Nash Fuel conversion kit. I was working to get this generator NG converted and load tested before hurricane season started, but ran in to a few issues. I initially installed ~60 ft o the 3/4" id underground Home Flex NG riser kit from my gas meter to my back yard in addition to a 15' hose from the gas riser quick connect to the generator and later discovered that I needed to increase the 3/4" Home Flex to 1" due to the size of this generator and the recommendation from a friend who installed a few whole home generators. Before I replaced the 3/4" home flex, I had my NG provider come out and increase my gas pressure from 4 oz/.25 psig to a little under 8 oz. .5 psig. Max inlet of the regulator is 8 oz so I wanted to stay below that. It took what seems like forever to bleed the air from the 3/4" Home Flex gas riser kit and 15 foot hose. Once I was sure that I had NG to the regulator, the generator would start and run for short periods. I could not keep it running no matter what different set up I tried with or without the Nash Fuels conversion kit. I tinkered with it for quite some time.

However, I bit the bullet and I replaced the 3/4" Home Flex NG riser kit with a 1" kit (yes, I had to dig up 18" deep piping that I had already covered up) and added a 1/2" bleeder valve upstream of the hose quick connection near the Home Flex gas riser and another 1/2" bleeder valve at the generator inlet upstream of the regulator. After air freeing for some time, the generator started up and ran ok without load on it. I had replaced the original regulator with the regulator (primer included) from the Nash Fuels conversion kit as well as the hose from that kit that has a smaller diameter than the original one that came with the generator. When I placed a load on it, the generator shut down. Then I changed out the branch valve (5 way valve) with the larger bore one supplied with the conversion kit from Nash Fuels. After that, it started up w/o needing to be primed and ran really well. I placed a load on it and it ran my whole home with the a/c, ceiling fans, tv and microwave running. It bogged down a little when the a/c cycled on, but this thing seems to have run really well for the hour or so that I tested it on NG.

So now I would like to fine tune my set up. After reading what has been shared I may need to see how it runs on gasoline after changing out the branch valve just in case I ever need to run on gasoline again. Additionally, do I need to purchase and .025 gap new spark plugs for NG/Gasoline? Finally, I just looked at a Micro-Air Easy Start/Soft Start and I am considering installing one on my a/c to allow it to slow start, reduce start up amp draw, increase generator performance when the a/c cycles on and likely extend my a/c compressor life. Any recommendations will be greatly appreciated.
I have a westinghouse 12000df and I am trying to convert mine to NG. So I have 1 question. Is the full flow branch valve included in Nash Fuel kit larger than the factory one? I recently bout the nash kit and the 5 way branch valve wasn’t included. I think they gave me wrong kit. Looks like a universal kit because it has a bunch of useless fittings that I don’t need and different size hoses than what I need. I took apart the factory branch valve to look at it and it is orifficed down with brass inserts. So maybe all you have to do is remove them or that is all Nash did to a factory branch valve. I dunno.
 
Joined
·
5 Posts
investigate the 5 way.
it might be the orifice for the system..
hard to tell what is on the inside till you take a look with the hoses removed.
you need maybe 20-30% more flow with NG.
and that is where a screw style load block works well.

so are you wanting tri fuel out of this?
or just gasoline NG?
the 5 way connector is indeed one of the orrifices of the system. I have same gen and took a look at mine and it has brass inserted orifices in each of the ports. All nash probably did was remove them from existing factory part.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Yes, to me it seems that the threaded brass offices were removed. Other than that, it looks to be the same.

I would pack that kit back up and have them ship to you the kit that you ordered.

On a different note, it would be good to know what the recommended max run time on Natural Gas before shutting the WGen12000DF to cool? The power outage in my local area after Ida lasted a few weeks. I'd imagine that it would not be good to run for an extended time. How may hours per day should the generator be powered down when running on Natural Gas?
 
Joined
·
5 Posts
Yes, to me it seems that the threaded brass offices were removed. Other than that, it looks to be the same.

I would pack that kit back up and have them ship to you the kit that you ordered.

On a different note, it would be good to know what the recommended max run time on Natural Gas before shutting the WGen12000DF to cool? The power outage in my local area after Ida lasted a few weeks. I'd imagine that it would not be good to run for an extended time. How may hours per day should the generator be powered down when running on Natural Gas?
Yea, I kinda figured that’s all it was. Thanks for the confirmation.
Oh yea. Well I just got it in mail a few days ago and I talked to them today about missing parts. He said he’ll get back to me but hasn’t yet. I am not so sure about the regulator either. I have 4oz pressure from regulator at house so I told him I need the 4oz reg. I got the 039-31173-1. The only thing stamped on it os 8oz max. There is nothing stamped on the inlet so I have no clue. I tried researching the model number and coming up with different numbers with a fewof them with same model number. I dunno. Maybe that model is like ait comes universal with only a max and everything else it customized by adjusting inlet spring and putting whatever orifice you want in there.

I remember seeing somewhere on it( think it was a sticker) that said 1/2” orifice but sticker must have fell off by me just handling it a couple times.

but the kit has. 1/2” hose,3/8 hose,and 5/8 hose.. and a bunch of useless fitting that I dont need like these T fittings and 90’s. I honestly don’t know what all of that is for.I think all I need is the 1/2” stuff from outlet of reg to branch valve.
I didn’t even get any 3/4”hose or fittings or shutooff valve for inlet on reg but I am not exactly sure if that was supposed to even come in the kit.

They don’t really tell you what’s in the kit exactly. I only went with Nash rather than PNG just because nash said you need the full flow branch valve and png says no because it’s not included in their kit.

Did yours come with the material for the inlet on regulator?

I haven’t even thought of that about if the generator will run hotter with natural gas versus gas or propane. That is a very good question.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
I think that's the same regulator that I received. It also did not have the 4 oz marking on it, but it works. My NG pressure was also 4oz. I had it increased to just a little below 8 oz as the regulator inlet max is 8 oz. I wanted to make sure I got a sufficient amount of NG to the regulator. My NG service tech increased it. After he realize that I may attempt to further increase it he said that i cannot increase it above 8oz as it would affect the NG appliances in the house. You can increase yourself at the NG meter if you have a pressure gage or an ounce gage. 4 oz is .25 psig/8 oz .5 psig.

The kit does not come with the 3/4" fittings on the inlet of the regulator. When you purchase the fittings at Home Depot/Ace/Lowes/your local piping supply whare house, I'd also recommend adding a bleeder at the inlet of the regulator to purge out air. Save yourself some time and effort since it takes a while (multiple start attempts) before all the air is out of the hose and you are getting mainly NG to the regulator. I also added a bleeder at my NG riser.
Motor vehicle Automotive tire Gas Auto part Automotive exhaust
Bicycle handlebar Plumbing valve Fluid Valve Plumbing fitting
 
Joined
·
5 Posts
I think that's the same regulator that I received. It also did not have the 4 oz marking on it, but it works. My NG pressure was also 4oz. I had it increased to just a little below 8 oz as the regulator inlet max is 8 oz. I wanted to make sure I got a sufficient amount of NG to the regulator. My NG service tech increased it. After he realize that I may attempt to further increase it he said that i cannot increase it above 8oz as it would affect the NG appliances in the house. You can increase yourself at the NG meter if you have a pressure gage or an ounce gage. 4 oz is .25 psig/8 oz .5 psig.

The kit does not come with the 3/4" fittings on the inlet of the regulator. When you purchase the fittings at Home Depot/Ace/Lowes/your local piping supply whare house, I'd also recommend adding a bleeder at the inlet of the regulator to purge out air. Save yourself some time and effort since it takes a while (multiple start attempts) before all the air is out of the hose and you are getting mainly NG to the regulator. I also added a bleeder at my NG riser. View attachment 12331 View attachment 12332
Nice setup. Good idea with bleeder.Is that T with shutoff valve your bleeder? Aint that what the primer is for on regulator? how long is your hose? I know the gas supply regulator at meter has an adjustable setting. So probably could crank it up a bit. Yea, I’m still learning this. also from southeast Louisiana.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Nice setup. Good idea with bleeder.Is that T with shutoff valve your bleeder? Aint that what the primer is for on regulator? how long is your hose? I know the gas supply regulator at meter has an adjustable setting. So probably could crank it up a bit. Yea, I’m still learning this. also from southeast Louisiana.
Yes, 3/4" x 3/4" x 1/2" and 1" x 1" x 1/2" at the riser. Even with the primer it took a while so I added the bleeders. Cranked right up after bleeding off the air.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Then you need one of these from home depot:

The fitting that is on the top of the regulator you simply replace it with that fitting from home depot and hook the hose going to the carb right up to it. I originally was using a load block but it wasn't letting enough fuel in. It ran fine but when I hit it with a load I could hear it was bogging down. As soon as I swapped that one fitting out it ran amazing, the thing barely hiccups when I turn my AC on. This worked perfectly and I pulled my plugs after running for two hours and it wasn't too rich or too lean, just right. If you already have your quick connects and 3/4" natural gas hose you literally just need a 3/4" street eblow, nipple, and that fitting from home depot. I did put a ball valve on mine as well but I guess you could skip that if you were trying to do it on the cheap. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions or want pictures of my set up. The best thing about this generator is that after doing the conversion it still runs perfectly on gasoline, and I could run it off propane if I really wanted to with the new regulator, I just just have to get the proper fittings. I could also easily return it to stock too like nothing ever happened.

As far as what your pressure is your meter should say on it what your WC is or you could call your gas company and they should know. Post a couple pics if you can. Now you should be able to do this conversion without swapping the regulator it will just take a minute of the generator cranking before the fuel will reach the carb depending on how long your hose is. I would suggest just using the garrettson regulator that came on the generator before buying another one.

The only "problem" I encountered was how to gap my plugs. Supposed to be .02 for natural gas .03 for gasoline. I do want the ability to run both so I just bought two ngk iridium plugs and gapped at .025.
ajnuzzi, ?4u, i'm finally getting around to converting my wgen12000df. Did the factory connector barb that you replaced on the KN regulator, have a smaller orifice than the one you got from Home Depot?
 
21 - 36 of 36 Posts
Top